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Re: Rainbow Warriors Arise!
Sat, July 4, 2009 - 7:16 AMUhhhh - YES B??? Your point being? on this red, white, and blue day? -
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Re: Rainbow Warriors Arise!
Sat, July 4, 2009 - 1:55 PMIt has nothing to do with the nationalist holiday... but my point is that I'm just sick of seeing this slow motion ecocide in progress, with no mass action to oppose it. It's perfectly legal what's going on, but to oppose it in any kind of effective, direct way is illegal. But how much more of it all can we take?! -
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Re: Rainbow Warriors Arise!
Sat, July 4, 2009 - 2:19 PMindependence from british rule which is IMHO where lots of problems originate from in any case, not american per se . -
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Re: Rainbow Warriors Arise!
Sat, July 4, 2009 - 2:31 PMThe struggle for independence in question could be the independence of LIFE, in all its wild color and vibrant diversity, from the toxic monolithic industry of imposed technologic order that is strangling us to DEATH. It started much further back than the founding of America.. probably with the Luddites fight against the first Industrial Revolution. The fight against the infernal machines that took their livelihoods, destroyed their communities, and blackened their skies, rivers and lungs.
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Re: Rainbow Warriors Arise!
Sat, July 4, 2009 - 2:28 PMThere are people out there that are living on the edge. They can barely afford to feed themselves with standard but cheap grocery store food/produce. Yet there are holyer-than-thou fanatics out there that wear their organicly grown (but expensive) foods as some sort of eliteist badge of honor. They push and push and seek to shove their holy (in their own eyes) values down other people's throats. A self rightous left wing vegan elitist nut is notbetter than a self rightous republican eliteist right wing nut. They both seek to IMPOSE on others.
This is why it is illegal to directly oppose as the extremists on both sides want to do. We all live on the same planet and have to work with each other no matter our viewpoints. I guess this is the entire reason for our quite flawed legal system. Flawed but it's what we have to work with. Just my 2 cents, nothing more than an opinion. -
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Re: Rainbow Warriors Arise!
Sat, July 4, 2009 - 2:40 PMI'm not one of those elitist eco-shoppers. Being a conscientious "consumer" is the very least a person can do within their means, and it's just more injustice that it has to be something only the moderately wealthy can afford. There are more direct ways a person can take action, and more direct ways are necessary. It seems completely absurd to me that a person can get hung up on being offended by someone's "self-righteousness" and "imposition" when what they seek to "impose" is salvation from the extinction of your species and the death of your planet. Could not someone in this case actual BE righteous? -
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Re: Rainbow Warriors Arise!
Sat, July 4, 2009 - 2:55 PM"We have to work with each other no matter what our viewpoints" - Their viewpoint is that they want to take everything under the sun and turn it into money for them and manufactured waste-product for us, and my viewpoint is that we need a healthy planet to live on. These are inherently oppositional viewpoints. Just how are we to "work with" these people who have the legal right and protection of the police, military, court and prison system to lay claim to all the world's resources and use them however they like? They DON'T CARE about us! They're just in it to get rich and live high on the hog before they die. I don't recognize their "right" or "freedom" to do this to us, and you shouldn't either. -
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Re: Rainbow Warriors Arise!
Sat, July 4, 2009 - 7:51 PM" I don't recognize their "right" or "freedom" to do this to us, and you shouldn't either. "
Nice, but I'm not about to let you tell me what I should or shouldn't think. I will listen to you like I listen to everybody then form my own opinion. But when you or anybody else seeks to trivialize, minimize, or demonize another point of view just because it is different from yours it helps no one. The ultimate end product of two opposite self-rightous extremists seeking to impose is war.
Talk to the other side but understand you are no more human than them and they are no less human than you.
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Re: Rainbow Warriors Arise!
Sat, July 4, 2009 - 7:45 PM" It seems completely absurd to me that a person can get hung up on being offended by someone's "self-righteousness" and "imposition" when what they seek to "impose" is salvation from the extinction of your species and the death of your planet. Could not someone in this case actual BE righteous? "
It is righteous..... from YOUR view point. From another person's view point saying " extinction of your species" could simply mean overblown drama queen. What is absurd to you could be important to another and vice versa with both being as equaly righteous to themselves. Someone could look at what your saying and equate it to someone saying repent for the end of the world is near ! back in 1899. To them you not converting to their particular flavor of religion could bring about the end of the world. They feel that "truth" with every fiber of their being just as you feel the about "extinction of your species" .
Righteousness is a very dangerous thing no matter which side uses it as an excuse to impose on others that feel differently. -
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Re: Rainbow Warriors Arise!
Sat, July 4, 2009 - 8:29 PMOh my gawd.. I give up. You say I'm self-righteous, but it's your own sense of self-righteousness that leads you to believe that not "imposing on anyone who feels differently" is taking the high-ground. There's obviously nothing I can say to galvanize someone who subscribes to a such a system of moral weakness. -
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Re: Rainbow Warriors Arise!
Sat, July 4, 2009 - 10:14 PMI am a radical environmentalist and political activist. I do not look down on people who cant afford expensive organic food, but I do feel that we should all be obligated (each and every one of us) to do what we can within our means to reduce our harmful impact and make the world a better place.
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Re: Rainbow Warriors Arise!
Sat, July 4, 2009 - 11:07 PMYou just don't get it do you ? I'll spell it out for you. You and I agree on likely 90% of things concerning our impact on the world around us. I have spent plenty of time (for me) learning about self sufficiency and work towards living off the grid. I spend time visiting and learning from the black bear ranch (commune) that is totally off grid (water, power,sewage) and other communities.. I volunteer as much time as I can to conservation efforts like escondido creek cleanup, lake isabella cleanup. When I can I also volunteer in homeless outreach programs. I'm part of a group that hands out simple things like water and sandwiches. Our most important function is not the "stuff" but just to sit, chat with and provide kind words to those that feel a need for that. I devote my time, energy and efforts to help make the world around me a little better.
What I am not however is as according to you, morally weak. If you have not noticed I engaged you. I will engage anybody that looks at others as less-than just because they hold a different opinion.
Passing judgment on me " who subscribes to such a system of moral weakness " as someone you know nothing about...... Are you sure your not just mirroring what you think of yourself ? We often accuse others of things we dislike about ourselves.
We are all equals, even those that hold differing opinions. That is one of the core values of a rainbow. Are you sure your rainbow ?
"Rainbow Warriors Arise ! " Why don't you quit playing warrior long enough to listen and talk to the other side. Mutual understanding and working with the other side is the only real way to make forward progress. -
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Re: Rainbow Warriors Arise!
Sun, July 5, 2009 - 12:54 AMConflict of wills is an inherent part of nature. A world beyond duality would be a world without form, with time or space, without you or me as individual people.
I try to keep in mind that we are all connected in some level, but I dont let that stop me from accomplishing my goals which sometimes happen to be in conflict with the wills of others. I dont avoid this conflict, these conflicts are the challenges that give us the adventures that test and temper us. Could you imagine trying to sit through a movie where there was no conflict, no drama and climax or resolution?
Sometimes an extreme position is the right one. For example, slavery is 100% wrong. We dont need a middle ground or a compromise between those who want slavery and those who dont. We dont need a moderate amount of slavery, we need to oppose it without compromise, even if that requires the use of force against the other side.
I wasnt able to view the video in the OP btw. Im just commenting on what has been stated here. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Rainbow Warriors Arise!
Sun, July 5, 2009 - 2:12 AMWe don't disagree. But what does imposing on others beget ? Hitler found out. Through dialog and simple disobedience Gandhi freed India. It is those willing to use words to educate and change minds that make a lasting difference.
There is a big difference between strength of reason and simple pushing (imposing). Push and the other side pushes back. Use reason and both sides work towards a solution instead of just fighting each other and going nowhere.
Children impose because they know nothing else. Adults use dialog and the strength of reason. That's why we sign contracts and agreements, words instead of wrestling (literally) to get what we want. Resolving conflict is most effective through reason. Imposing through self-righteousness and demonizing the opposite side is not reasoning. It is just a simple child bumbling around causing more harm than good.
Don't misunderstand me. I have a keen understanding that in some rare circumstances the controlled application of violence is the best tool for the job. But until those rare circumstances comes about, I for one will reason with the other side through cooperative, respectful dialog.
You are right when you used the word MOVIE with drama and climax. They belong in a movie not in conflict resolution.
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Re: Rainbow Warriors Arise!
Sun, July 5, 2009 - 3:39 AMI'm sorry for saying you were morally weak. Maybe that was too broad a statement to make. It's just that what I was hearing from you sounded a lot like the kind of muddy relativistic approach to morality I've run into before in talking to hippies. The philosophy I'm talking about is forever standing in the way of decisive action by removing all basis for strong moral conviction. I don't respect this type of philosophy. As an anarchist, on principle I'm opposed to coercive force. However, when being forcibly coerced, I'm not opposed to fighting back with coercive force of my own. I don't see anything inherently wrong with fighting for your life. The larger fight in question is self-defense on a global scale. It's not the fight for any single life, but for the life of every living thing on the planet! I understand that there is some gray area to reality, and that truth is to some degree in the eye of the beholder, but there are just some things that can be known beyond a shadow of a doubt to be WRONG, and should not be tolerated. For example, I don't believe that everyone making large sums of money while taking a direct role in major environmental devastation is doing so because they are ignorant of the facts, and only need to be rationalized with. I think they know precisely what they're doing, and will not stop without being made to stop. I understand that you get more flies with honey than you do with vinegar, and that the people in power are used to dealing with violence with even greater violence,... but we need to be clear about what's happening here and confront it directly. In a nutshell, the situation is something much like the scenario of a comic book by Derrick Jensen:
THE WORLD IS BEING EATEN BY ALIEN ROBOTS.
THEY'RE BEING ALLOWED TO DO IT
(IN EXCHANGE FOR WORTHLESS NUGGETS OF GOLD),
AND -
IT'S ALL PERFECTLY LEGAL !! -
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Re: Rainbow Warriors Arise!
Sun, July 5, 2009 - 3:41 AMCan we come to a reasonable and mature, mutually beneficial solution to that?? -
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Re: Rainbow Warriors Arise!
Sun, July 5, 2009 - 4:44 AMAs I mentioned before we agree on perhaps better than 90% as far as our impact on the world around us. I don't like so few taking so much from so many but that is the world we currently live in. How does that change ? Through reason and dialog with others. You can't reason with everyone but you can increase the numbers of those that you can. At some point those that disagree will benefit more by agreeing and they will naturally do so. I would like to point out that it is already happening. Because of the "green movement" has reached large numbers of people even large corporations previously against it now are coming aboard. Reasoning is prevailing. Progress is being made.
We already are finding reasonable, mature and mutually beneficial solutions. For large corporations it's using the language of money. When large corporations can either save money or make money..... instant change. When corporations understand that their customers want "green" then the corporations want green too.
So don't stress over it so much. The consciousness of the green movement is spreading and faster than ever. -
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Re: Rainbow Warriors Arise!
Mon, July 6, 2009 - 2:37 AMPeaceful means should always be attempted first. If you have not exhausted peaceful means first, then you are not acting with moral authority. If you act without justice on your side, you may be victorious in the short term but it will catch up with you and you will be left to your own devices, which generally ends up being a bad thing in the end.
Its also important to choose your battles. I have opinions on lots of different things, most of which are not worth fighting about and can probably be overlooked in polite company. Some things cannot be overlooked though. With some things there can be no middle ground or else taking the middle path is like cutting the child in two. In rare circumstances sides must be chosen and anything less simply will not do (such as the example of slavery or genocide).
Generally, for most practical things, there is very little to fight about and very little we cant solve through civil discourse. When conflict does arise, its best to stop it before it happens. If fighting occurs, then you have already failed to achieve the best outcome. However, in less than ideal circumstances it can sometimes be worse not to fight. This should be a last resort and something that is done when all other options are exhausted.
What we are doing to the earth is pretty serious. The health of mother Gaia is something that is worth fighting for, but we need to think about this strategically. Regardless of how important the battle is, we have to use tact and treat even the people who live in ignorance with respect. Also, we should avoid looking down our noses at those who are less fortunate than ourselves. Some people have families to take care of and responsibilities and have even less opportunity to get even free organic food out of dumpsters than some totally broke traveling radicals have. They cant afford environmentally friendly cars and riding a bike just wont get their children to school on the way to work, and walking through gang infested neighborhoods also isnt an option for them. We cant look down on these people who are trapped in this system, its the system itself we have to take issue with. It cant go on like this. -
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Re: Rainbow Warriors Arise!
Mon, July 6, 2009 - 10:18 AMSentient, I agree with you. Seems you have not fallen into the same self righteous one track mind pitfall that others have fallen into. ( Let it be clear that I'm not referring to anybody in this thread but people encountered in my life. ) There is a terrible and often overlooked cost that our "green" efforts sometimes causes that is almost never addressed. The cost to those in our society that are already marginalized, already barely holding on. Our previous "green" movement efforts caused plants to shut down pushing families of the workers and the community off the edge. There were no efforts to help those, as if we did not care about the human toll. Now we are exploring "green" technologies that turn food into fuel (corn,sugar cane, etc) pushing world prices of food commodities like corn up. Some people in the poorer countries that could barely afford food before now are in starvation mode. They lost the fight to our "green" gas tanks. As you pointed out even in our own country there are people barely able to drive their non green cars to get themselves to work kids to school. They have less opportunity than even poor traveling radicals for organic food.
I'm not saying that green is wrong it isn't, it's a necessity. We just can't be so busy with our self-righteousness that we are blind to the people suffering. We can't claim to be doing good if we ignore and don't address the bad that we inadvertently cause. What I am saying is self righteousness is a dangerous thing, it is a selfish thing. We should always look at and consider the other side and not just our own viewpoint. We should use reason, dialog and respect to solve our differences. There are situations where there can be no compromise, but those come once in a lifetime if that. It is too easy to fall into the trap of self-righteousness and ultimately cause more harm than good. We see a near daily example of that from conservative republicans. Let’s not be like them.
Anyways, Sentient , B that was a fantastic discussion and you both have given me plenty to think about..
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Re: Rainbow Warriors Arise!
Mon, July 13, 2009 - 8:02 PMgalvanize thyself ;)
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Re: Rainbow Warriors Arise!
Tue, July 7, 2009 - 6:16 PMMy sentaments on this must Holy day,,,,is that my family was not all together'''so United we stand and Diviede we will fall,,,so Unite so that we may be strong against the darkness that is consuming everything good,,,,Love and Light Mary
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